Well, of course, Shakespeare is referring to the poem as "the first heir of my invention," which is especially problematic to the view he originated the plays. This is 1593, and no one can deny many of the early English histories were already written--and so too, given conventional dating, were the early Italian comedies. Shakespeare doesn't consider these works as part of his invention because--as Groatsworth showed and many knew--he did not originate these plays.
Dennis, not sure I understand this response. I posed the question. "was the heir the poem or Wriothesley?" I think your comment is intended to signify that the poem was the invention which would make Southampton the heir, supporting the reading that it is Wriothesley who might prove deformed and so disappoint the author. The alternative reading, that it is the name Shakespeare which is the invention is also consistent with your comment, though I understand you to believe that Shakspere of Stratford was already connected with Burbage's company. I have not seen your take on Venus and Adonis (I think I saw your take on the poems is forthcoming), whether you assign it to North, or to Stratford.
Much as I would like to accept the long held view that Groatsworth's Upstart Crow is a reference to Shakespeare (it substitutes player for woman in the quote from Henry VI and thus would work neatly for Mary), it is now well established that the Crow is actually Ned Alleyn. See:
No, no, no. “Invention” obviously refers to the poet’s creativity or imagination. “The first heir of my invention” clearly refers to this first child of my imagination. Venus and Adonis is the first work he fathered. This is boilerplate. This is standard in Elizabethan dedications for writers to refer to their works as their child or babe or newborn— and I could list a dozen examples. (And no the crow is obviously not Ned Alleyn. The crow is indisputably an actor-playwright—not just an actor — and indisputably a plagiarizer of the “tiger’s heart” line, which is one of the stolen feathers.)
I gather then you intend to give Venus and Adonis to the Stratford man? Either you do not properly appreciate the poem or have a much higher opinion of his literary talent than I thought.
Have you read Bull? Holding on the the Shakespeare identification makes you either uninformed or not serious. Bombast is stuffing. The Crow is an actor who pads his lines and we have actually holograph examples of Alleyn doing exactly that.
(That's a sincere proposal about live zoom debate. I think people would be interested--and it would be friendly.) Anyway, it doesn't make sense to claim that the Groatswroth author was indignant that Ned Alleyn thought he could deliver a speech on stage better than the writers, Marlowe, Nashe, Greene. Of course, the insult is that Shake-Scene though he could *write* a speech better than them.
1) I'm just telling you what the line indisputably means: "first heir of my invention" = "first child of my imagination" --and I don't force the plain meanings of sentences to conform to theories or wishes.
2) Want to debate on Groatsworth interpretation live over zoom? Anyway, the line says that Shake-Scene thinks he is well "able to bombast out a blank verse better as the best of you"--referencing the three gentleman-playwrights (Marlowe, Nashe, and the third). Those aren't three actors that the Groatsworth letter is addressed to. So "bombast out a blank verse as the best of" those three means create a bombastic, blank-verse speech as Marlowe, Nashe, etc . Jonson explicitly alludes to Groatsworth in Epicene--and again clearly references it in his ode to Shakespeare in the FF when he says "to hear thy buskin tread and Shake-a-Stage." That's Shake-Scene/ Shakespeare--who was also referred to as Roscius due to his thundering acting ability. The crow is someone who plagiarizes--and got credit for material by Marlowe, Nashe, and Greene-as we know Shakespeare did.
So far so good. It does seem to me that you are leaving out significant parts of the story, Hero and Leander, for instance. And the first seventeen sonnets. As for making the case that Burghley wanted help convincing Southampton to marry his granddaughter, that's well documented. I definitely agree that Shaksper had nothing to do with it. But someone did.
Well, of course, Shakespeare is referring to the poem as "the first heir of my invention," which is especially problematic to the view he originated the plays. This is 1593, and no one can deny many of the early English histories were already written--and so too, given conventional dating, were the early Italian comedies. Shakespeare doesn't consider these works as part of his invention because--as Groatsworth showed and many knew--he did not originate these plays.
Dennis, not sure I understand this response. I posed the question. "was the heir the poem or Wriothesley?" I think your comment is intended to signify that the poem was the invention which would make Southampton the heir, supporting the reading that it is Wriothesley who might prove deformed and so disappoint the author. The alternative reading, that it is the name Shakespeare which is the invention is also consistent with your comment, though I understand you to believe that Shakspere of Stratford was already connected with Burbage's company. I have not seen your take on Venus and Adonis (I think I saw your take on the poems is forthcoming), whether you assign it to North, or to Stratford.
Much as I would like to accept the long held view that Groatsworth's Upstart Crow is a reference to Shakespeare (it substitutes player for woman in the quote from Henry VI and thus would work neatly for Mary), it is now well established that the Crow is actually Ned Alleyn. See:
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/0013838X.2020.1717829?scroll=top&needAccess=true
No, no, no. “Invention” obviously refers to the poet’s creativity or imagination. “The first heir of my invention” clearly refers to this first child of my imagination. Venus and Adonis is the first work he fathered. This is boilerplate. This is standard in Elizabethan dedications for writers to refer to their works as their child or babe or newborn— and I could list a dozen examples. (And no the crow is obviously not Ned Alleyn. The crow is indisputably an actor-playwright—not just an actor — and indisputably a plagiarizer of the “tiger’s heart” line, which is one of the stolen feathers.)
I gather then you intend to give Venus and Adonis to the Stratford man? Either you do not properly appreciate the poem or have a much higher opinion of his literary talent than I thought.
Have you read Bull? Holding on the the Shakespeare identification makes you either uninformed or not serious. Bombast is stuffing. The Crow is an actor who pads his lines and we have actually holograph examples of Alleyn doing exactly that.
(That's a sincere proposal about live zoom debate. I think people would be interested--and it would be friendly.) Anyway, it doesn't make sense to claim that the Groatswroth author was indignant that Ned Alleyn thought he could deliver a speech on stage better than the writers, Marlowe, Nashe, Greene. Of course, the insult is that Shake-Scene though he could *write* a speech better than them.
1) I'm just telling you what the line indisputably means: "first heir of my invention" = "first child of my imagination" --and I don't force the plain meanings of sentences to conform to theories or wishes.
2) Want to debate on Groatsworth interpretation live over zoom? Anyway, the line says that Shake-Scene thinks he is well "able to bombast out a blank verse better as the best of you"--referencing the three gentleman-playwrights (Marlowe, Nashe, and the third). Those aren't three actors that the Groatsworth letter is addressed to. So "bombast out a blank verse as the best of" those three means create a bombastic, blank-verse speech as Marlowe, Nashe, etc . Jonson explicitly alludes to Groatsworth in Epicene--and again clearly references it in his ode to Shakespeare in the FF when he says "to hear thy buskin tread and Shake-a-Stage." That's Shake-Scene/ Shakespeare--who was also referred to as Roscius due to his thundering acting ability. The crow is someone who plagiarizes--and got credit for material by Marlowe, Nashe, and Greene-as we know Shakespeare did.
So far so good. It does seem to me that you are leaving out significant parts of the story, Hero and Leander, for instance. And the first seventeen sonnets. As for making the case that Burghley wanted help convincing Southampton to marry his granddaughter, that's well documented. I definitely agree that Shaksper had nothing to do with it. But someone did.